Newsletter #1173

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No games at the weekend due to the slight distraction of international friendlies and England beating the Argies.

Tonight we have interesting news on former City players, opinion on access to tickets, songs and the usual requests.

Next game: Blackburn Rovers, home, 3pm Saturday 19 November 2005

OPINION: WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

Thought others may find this article that appeared in The Sunday Times interesting, on what the former players and staff are doing…

The Sunday Times
November 13, 2005

Caught in Time: Manchester City win the Second Division, 1966 – Greg Struthers

Manchester City have spent a long time in the shadow of Manchester United. But it was not always so. When Joe Mercer became manager in 1965 and brought in Malcolm Allison as his coach, City began the most successful era in their history, winning the Second Division title in 1966. Two years later, City beat United to the First Division title and later added the FA Cup and Cup Winners’ Cup. By the early 1970s they were regarded as one of the top teams in the land.

[he numbers are from a photograph with the article]

  1. Tony Book: A bricklayer who was playing amateur football at 29, Book wasplucked from obscurity. A calm, swift defender and captain, he played in 244league games until he retired in 1973 to become a coach and then manager atthe club, winning the League Cup. He scouts for Spurs and lives in Manchester.
  2. Glyn Pardoe: A talented left-back who made his début at 15, he is theclub’s youngest-ever player. He joined in 1961 and played in virtually everyposition. He works part-time in security and summarises on radio.
  3. Bobby Kennedy: Kennedy was born in Motherwell and joined City in 1961 fromKilmarnock. A regular in defence, he moved to Grimsby in 1969. He works for aManchester tailor.
  4. Cliff Sear: After joining City from Oswestry in 1955, he played in 248league games in 13 years. A Welsh international full back, he moved toChester in 1968 and became coach and manager of the club. He later joinedWrexham as youth development officer until he died of a heart attack at 63 in2000.
  5. George Heslop: After six years at Newcastle and Everton, Heslop joinedCity for £20,000 in 1965 to strengthen the defence. During the next sevenseasons he played 162 league games before moving to play for Cape Town Cityin South Africa. He was landlord of The City Gates, a pub in Manchester atthe hub of the club in its early days. He was a social worker on the Fyldecoast and worked at a boating lake at Fairhavens.
  6. Peter Blakey: The club physiotherapist during the 1960s.
  7. Roy Cheetham: A defender who spent 10 years at the club, he had 132 leaguegames before moving to Detroit when City won promotion. He finished hiscareer at Chester. Now retired, he is involved in the ex-players’ association.
  8. Mike Doyle: Doyle made his début as a centre forward in 1965. He alsoplayed right back before moving to the middle of the defence for 14 seasons.Doyle, who won five England caps, played for Stoke, Bolton and Rochdale. Heworked in insurance and was a sales manager for Slazenger but has retired.
  9. Stan Horne: Born in Clanfield, Oxfordshire, he was one of the pioneeringblack players of the 1960s, starting as an apprentice at Aston Villa. Hornejoined City in 1965 and played 50 league games in midfield. He moved toFulham in 1969. He also played for Chester and Rochdale before retiring.
  10. Harry Dowd: A local-born goalkeeper who was at Maine Road for nine yearsand made 219 appearances, once scoring a goal. He was a sales representativefor John Lees Brewery for 26 years and has retired.
  11. Alan Oakes: The cousin of Glyn Pardoe, Oakes spent 17 seasons at Cityafter joining in 1959. He made a record 669 appearances before becomingplayer-manager at Chester and coach at Port Vale. Retired and living inMiddlewich, he follows his son Michael, who plays for Wolves.
  12. Mike Summerbee: An accomplished winger who joined from Swindon in 1965,Summerbee won eight England caps. He also played for Burnley, Blackpool andStockport, where he was player-manager. He is chairman of his own shirt-making company and helps City with hospitality and promotion. He had a partin the film Escape To Victory.
  13. Malcolm Allison: A player with Charlton and West Ham, he is best known asan eccentric but brilliant coach and a free-spending manager. He was at BathCity and Plymouth before linking up with Mercer at City in 1965. Heeventually took sole control but left the club in disarray in 1973. He filledvarious managerial posts, finding most success when leading Sporting Lisbonto the League and Cup double. He has retired.
  14. Colin Bell: Bought from Bury for £45,000 in March 1966, he became City’sheartbeat, a powerful runner and a brilliant finisher. He won 48 Englandcaps. Bell ran his own restaurant in Manchester before becoming youthdevelopment officer at the club. Still involved in his family’s dry cleaningbusiness, he is a match-day host at the club.
  15. Neil Young: Started his career as a left winger for City in 1959 andmoved to inside-left, where he showed a penchant for scoring important goals,including the winner in the 1969 FA Cup final. He bagged 19 goals when Citywon the league in 1968 and scored in the Cup Winners’ Cup final. He alsoplayed for Preston and Rochdale and coaches juniors.
  16. Johnny Crossan: A ball-winning midfielder who captained the team topromotion after joining from Sunderland in January 1965. Born in Londonderry,he was banned for life for allegedly being paid as an amateur and played inHolland and Belgium before moving to Sunderland. After two years at MaineRoad, he moved to Middlesbrough in August 1967. He won 24 caps for NorthernIreland and lives in Londonderry, where he runs his own sports shop.
  17. Joe Mercer: A strong left-half with Everton and Arsenal, he won theleague championship with both clubs. After managing Sheffield United andAston Villa, he took over at City and won promotion in his first season.Mercer became general manager of Coventry in 1972 and was caretaker managerof England for seven games. He retired to Merseyside until his death inAugust 1990.
  18. David Connor: After progressing through the junior ranks, Connor spent 10years at the club, playing 141 league games in defence. He finished hiscareer at Preston. Retired, he lives in Manchester.
  19. Ralph Brand: Signed by Rangers after appearing on television as a 15-year-oldplaying for Scotland schoolboys against England, Brand scored 206goals in 317 games for the Glasgow giants. He won eight caps but afterjoining in 1965 in two years at City he failed to make an impact. A coach andmanager, he is a taxi driver in Edinburgh.
  20. John Hart: After a 15-year playing career at the club during which hescored 67 goals, Hart became coach in 1960. He was manager for a short whilein 1973 and has retired.

Sent in by Peter Carlisle <Carlisle(at)loxinfo.co.th>

OPINION: THOSE SONGS I

Again, it’s great to see so many varied views on this and I would like to add a couple of points to some of the arguments/suggestions raised.

The first one is to Joel Perry; first of all Joel, thanks for your honesty and for adding a different dimension to the debate. You are right about United supporters almost inviting these songs. After all, in order to hate, some people need to be hated first, Millwall supporters have made a career from that. But surely it would be more annoying to the Rags if we took the higher ground and didn’t use these chants, and when they promote the Munich chants, just laugh at it; maybe that should be something for some Rag publications to think about?

As I said earlier, there are many other things we can taunt them with, they are c**p and suffering from severe inferiority complex syndrome at the moment. It’s not that long ago that they were singing that they would never be playing us again, and Taggart declared that we weren’t even derby contenders; he certainly wishes we weren’t now doesn’t he?

The second point is to Alex Channon; thank you for getting involved. I think that some sort of Memorial Ceremony before the next derby game could be a good idea, but I’m not sure. Unless “That Song” was made an issue of the ceremony, would it work? And if it was, would it not seem a bit tacky?

I’m not trying to create some sort of brotherhood between ourselves and them, that should never happen: we hate them, they hate us, that should be the normal order of things.

I like the idea of The “Automated Muzak Chants” drowning the offending song, but surely the best way to get this across is if the right-thinking fans be the Muzak, make your displeasure known – the best way to stop it is just not to do it, and if other people are doing it, sing it down. I’m sure that there are far more people that want to see it just happily disappear than want it to stay, It’s time for the silent majority to become vocal.

I would ask that anyone that subscribers to any other publications make their feelings known. Copy my, or any other letters and let’s get the word around.

There was something that happened recently that illustrates the point perfectly; you may have read about it in the M.E.N.

A City supporter was recently killed in an accident. I didn’t know him but I know lots of people who did. He was obviously very well liked. His relatives asked that all the people who came to his funeral should wear City colours, which they all did, even the many United supporters who counted him as a friend were happy to show him that respect.

Rivalry should end at death shouldn’t it?

Keep the faith.

Phil <XPHILLEE(at)aol.com>

OPINION: THOSE SONGS II

Regarding the Munich songs, I know it’s a difficult one, but I think some action by the club is what is needed to get the message across that most people don’t want to hear it. I’m sure I’ve seen posters at the ground that say you should report any racist behaviour to stewards, as part of the anti- racism campaign, so could the club not extend this to include these songs?

The stewards have obviously been briefed to tackle standing and even though they are greatly outnumbered, they have a go. An announcement like the one Gary Sullivan suggested in the last MCIVTA would emphasise the message well, as would something in Stuart Pearce’s programme notes. It seems that there is a consensus of opinion on this from supporters’ comments and it’s funny how the club has been silent on this, in an age when political correctness has gone too far in other areas.

As for Joel Perry’s provocative comments, I can’t see how there’s a link between whether I remember a tragedy and whether it is acceptable to use it to joke, mock and insult. I’m 32 so don’t remember the event, but do understand something of the tragedy, pain and grief involved in a loss of life. Yes, some will always be insensitive and insultive, but if something is clearly offending more than a few people and is in no way necessary, I suggest the decent response would be to stop, rather than try to defend it.

Andy Chard <a.chard(at)libertystudents.com>

OPINION: THOSE SONGS III

I’ve been heavily involved in the making of the club album released at the end of the month, I perform 2 of the tracks and was responsible for recording the crowd chants for the album (even though we’ve made a track based on “Hello we are the City Boys”). No Munich references were allowed or even welcomed on the album.

As well as being one of the exec producers on the album, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things. Firstly no-one involved in the album knew anything about the club playing the aptly named ghost chants, they were given to the club for them to hear the quality of sound we achieved. I read an article by SP saying the club were trying new things to bolster the atmosphere but having spoken to Steve Sayer at City I can assure the fans this will not happen again, and for those of us at the Villa game, the atmosphere was electric throughout and I for one believe it’s getting better every game.

Secondly, regarding the Munich chants, I too feel embarrassed every time this happens and it has to stop. I agree that either the chairman or the manager for that matter should publicly comment on this or at least add something to a match programme. It is so disrespectful to keep on at this – every home game there are ex-City players working at the club; Summerbee, Tueart, Barnes and the odd one who knew and played alongside some off the players who tragically lost their lives. Could they not help out on this and speak out about it?

Many thanks, Jon Christos <jon(at)jonchristos.wanadoo.co.uk>

OPINION: THOSE SONGS IV

I agree with the sentiments expressed in the recent newsletters and think it is time for these people to grow up and sing something less sick and more intelligent. I would also point out that the players have not exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to this subject.

I am pretty certain that in the Wembley dressing room after the play-off final in 1999 the players were singing “Terry Cooke, he’s not Munich any more” whilst the player was being interviewed.

Al Chambers <Achambers(at)fusioninsurance.co.uk>

OPINION: THOSE SONGS V

Let me start by saying that I am 28 years old and have always been appalled by Munich chants and have never had any desire to join in. I think that Joel Perry’s letter illustrates that the problem goes deeper than singing about Munich. He talks of his hate of United fans and scousers as well.

Now I don’t want to come across as some free loving hippy, but why so much hatred? For the most part you are hating people because of factors over which they have had no control, namely where they were born. Even the out of town Milton Keynes Utd fans don’t deserve our hate; pity maybe, but not hate. Some of my best friends are Utd.; do I give them a hard time about their form and the Glazers? Sure. Do I want to say something that may cause deep offence or hurt them physically as Joel suggests? Never; it’s not natural and I too am City. Joel is right though in pointing out that this problem is not unique to City and some United fans’ holier than thou attitude does nothing to solve the problem. City, United, and every other team I’m sure, have their element of idiots.

Football has always attracted uneducated young men with few prospects, which results in a lot of pent-up aggression. Football matches become an ideal setting for release. It’s been manifest before in racism and hooliganism. Take a look at some message boards and see some of the bile served up there. Until these individuals find some greater meaning to their lives than supporting a football team, the underlying problem will always remain. Unfortunately, there is nothing this newsletter or MCFC can do to make that happen.

That’s not to say we shouldn’t try to do something about the chanting though. I like Gary Sullivan’s idea of trying to embarrass them with some sort of public announcement, but I think the only really effective measure will be aggressive stewarding. That also may deflect their (the stewards) attention from those who like to stand up occasionally at games. Whatever is done, if it is to work it will require involvement from the top.

James Gregson <jpg37(at)nm.byu.edu>

OPINION: TRAUTMANN

Bert Trautmann was a prisoner of war near the village where I grew up on the edge of the Lake District. The prisoners were allowed to work on farms etc. as they did not want escape or to go back to Germany.

The local football team would not let him play for them because he was a German prisoner of war. What a missed opportunity for them.

Sam Duxbury <samduxbury(at)safesystems.fsnet.co.uk>

OPINION: CHOPPER BARTON

Follow up on Barry Anderton’s article on bookings for hard men. Stats cannot be for the season as Hendrie has not played this season!

CTID, Graham Lord <gooch(at)spidernet.com.cy>

OPINION: MATCH CARDS

I am coming over to Manchester from Australia to see my family for Xmas and I’m hoping to get a game (or two) in while I am over. So far it’s looking likely that it will be the Birmingham home game that I’ll be able to get to. Not even looked into Chelsea for the reasons below.

I have a “match card” but I recall that last time I was over in the UK I could only purchase one ticket on this and I had to use a mate’s season ticket status to buy another ticket for my girlfriend. Has this changed now? It seems to me that the only way I am sure of getting a ticket is to buy the hospitality package, but at 60 quid a head it’s a tad expensive when you’re paying in Aussie dollars! However, I’ve come 12,000 miles and if that’s what we have to do (my partner and I) that is what we will do!

Funny how City are becoming more of a corporation these days… not that it’s a bad thing for the club, but I do recall the days when I could walk into the reception at Maine Road and speak to Janice Gibson (if she was around) and be given a tour of the ground and able to purchase as many tickets as I wanted… and the ground was smaller in capacity! That “family” feeling has gone nowadays.

As a side note… I hate the Munich chants and have been reading people’s comments with interest. If you are a “true” supporter you will know that United and City (however much we deny it 🙂 ) are strongly linked to each other over the years. I remember me and my brother (him in his United shirt and me in my City shirt) doing a “tour each other’s grounds” day and I was treated with respect and courtesy as I toured Old Trafford with my brother, me dressed in my City shirt, as was he when he toured COMS in his United shirt. We brought a smile to the tour guides and guests’ faces!

Andrew Frodsham <afrodsham(at)deloitte.com.au>

OPINION: EX-BLUES NEWS

I’m currently on holiday in Perth Western Australia and thought I’d let you know that former City “hard-man” Steve McMahon is enjoying a very successful season (so far) as manager of Perth Glory http://www.perthglory.com.au/

The “Glory” are currently 3rd in the Hyundai ‘A’ League and beat New Zealand Knights 3-0 on Friday night.

Also former “City Aussie” Danny Allsopp is now “back home” and playing for Melbourne Victory http://www.melbournevictory.com.au/ who recently lost to the Glory 2-1.

One final thought, and just to put things into perspective. Imagine you’re a New Zealand Knights fan and followed them home and away – the flight from New Zealand to Perth is 7 hours, which is hell of a way to go for a 7.00pm KO on a Friday night!

Howard Burr <reddishblues(at)btinternet.com>

REQUEST: CHARLTON TICKET AVAILABLE

I have one ticket for Charlton away on Sunday 4 December; if anybody is interested, please email me.

Mick McCue <mccuem(at)bupa.com>

REQUEST: REDDISH BLUES

The next meeting of the Reddish Branch of the Manchester City Centenary Supporters’ Association will be this coming Wednesday, 16 November at The Ash Hotel, Manchester Road, Stockport, starting at 8.00pm – doors 7.00pm.

You are advised to get there as early as possible as we may well have to close the doors because our confirmed guests for the evening are City legend Colin Bell and Ian Cheeseman.

Colin and Ian will be doing a Q&A session, and you will also have the opportunity to purchase a copy of Colin’s recently released autobiography “Reluctant Hero”.

As always everyone is welcome.

[We’ve just had the pleasure of King Colin tonight at Denton, and another superb evening with him. The book is fantastic, a review to follow very shortly – Ed]

Howard Burr – Secretary, Reddish Blues – on holiday in Perth W.A. <reddishblues(at)btinternet.com>

RESULTS

League table to 13 November 2005 inclusive.

                             HOME          AWAY        OVERALL
                    P  W  D  L  F  A  W  D  L  F  A  W  D  L  F   A   GD Pts
 1 Chelsea         12  6  0  0 18  4  4  1  1 10  3 10  1  1  28   7  21  31
 2 Wigan Athletic  11  4  1  1  6  3  4  0  1  7  2  8  1  2  13   5   8  25
 3 Bolton Wndrs    12  4  1  1  6  1  3  1  2  8 10  7  2  3  14  11   3  23
 4 Manchester Utd  11  2  2  1  5  4  4  1  1 11  7  6  3  2  16  11   5  21
 5 Arsenal         11  6  0  0 13  2  0  2  3  3  6  6  2  3  16   8   8  20
 6 Tottenham H.    12  3  2  1  6  3  2  3  1  7  5  5  5  2  13   8   5  20
 7 Manchester City 12  4  1  1  9  4  2  1  3  6  7  6  2  4  15  11   4  20
 8 Charlton Ath.   11  1  1  3  4  7  5  0  1 12  7  6  1  4  16  14   2  19
 9 West Ham United 11  4  1  1 11  4  1  2  2  4  6  5  3  3  15  10   5  18
10 Newcastle Utd   12  3  2  1  6  5  2  1  3  6  5  5  3  4  12  10   2  18
11 Blackburn R.    12  4  1  1 10  5  1  1  4  5 10  5  2  5  15  15   0  17
12 Liverpool       10  3  1  1  5  4  1  3  1  4  4  4  4  2   9   8   1  16
13 Middlesbrough   12  2  2  2  7  8  2  1  3  8  8  4  3  5  15  16  -1  15
14 Fulham          12  3  1  2  8  6  0  2  4  4 10  3  3  6  12  16  -4  12
15 Portsmouth      12  0  3  3  3  8  2  1  3  8  7  2  4  6  11  15  -4  10
16 Everton         11  1  1  3  2  5  2  0  4  2  7  3  1  7   4  12  -8  10
17 Aston Villa     12  1  2  3  6 10  1  1  4  4 11  2  3  7  10  21 -11   9
18 West Brom A.    12  2  0  4  8 12  0  2  4  1 10  2  2  8   9  22 -13   8
19 Birmingham City 12  0  1  5  3 10  1  2  3  4  7  1  3  8   7  17 -10   6
20 Sunderland      12  0  2  4  6 14  1  0  5  5 10  1  2  9  11  24 -13   5

With thanks to Football 365

MCIVTA FAQ [v0506.02]

[1] MCIVTA Addresses

Articles (Heidi Pickup)          : editor@mcivta.city-fan.org
News/rumour (Don Barrie)         : news@mcivta.city-fan.org
Subscriptions (Madeleine Hawkins): subscriptions@mcivta.city-fan.org
Technical problems (Paul)        : paul@city-fan.org
FAQ (David Warburton)            : faq@mcivta.city-fan.org

[2] What are MCIVTA’s publishing deadlines?

Deadlines for issues are nominally 6pm, Monday and Thursday evenings bu email. Unfortunately we cannot accept email attachments.

[3] MCIVTA Back Issues and Manchester City Supporters’ home page

http://www.uit.no/mancity/ is the unofficial Manchester City Supporters’ home page. Created in 1994, it is the longest running of the Manchester City related web sites. Back issues of MCIVTA are also hosted on the site.

[4] What is the club’s official web site?

The official club web site can be found at http://www.mcfc.co.uk/

[5] What supporters’ clubs are there?

Manchester City FC recognises three supporters’ clubs: The “Official Supporters Club” (http://www.mcfcosc.com/); the “Centenary Supporters’ Association” (http://www.reddishblues.com/CSAWebsite/CSA.htm) and “The International Supporters’ Club”.

[6] Where can I find out about the fans’ committee?

The Fans’ Committee operates as an interface between supporters and the club. The Fans’ Committee has been relaunched as “Points of Blue”. It has appeared on the club website as a minor entry under “Fans Zone”.

[7] What match day broadcasts are available on the web?

The GMR pre and post match phone-in is available on the web at http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/gmr/sport_intro.shtml.

Live match commentaries and archives of games, reports and interviews can be found at http://mcfc.videoloungetv.com/do/preLogin?clubSiteCode=MCFC&CMP=AFC-003.

[8] Where can I find out if City are live on satellite TV?

http://www.satfootball.com/pl.html provides a listing of Premiership games being shown on UK domestic and foreign satellite channels. Useful sites for North American viewers are http://www.foxsportsworld.com/named/FSW/Index/Soccer, http://www.soccertv.com/, and http://www.livesoccertv.com/.

[9] Do we have a Usenet newsgroup?

Yes we do: uk.sport.football.clubs.man-city is our home on usenet. If you are not familiar with usenet, a basic explanation is available here: http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,289893,sid9_gci213262,00.html

[10] Do any squad members have their own web pages?

There are a number available and direct links can be found at http://www.uit.no/mancity/players/

[11] Can I buy shares in the club?

Yes you can: Shares in Manchester City PLC are traded on OFEX. The latest prices can be on found the OFEX web site http://www.ofex.com/ (registration required) or in the business section of the Manchester Evening News.

[12] Where can I find match statistics?

Statistics for the current season are available from the club site, but for a more in-depth analysis try http://www.mcfcstats.com/.

[13] Where can I find a list of City-related websites?

Try Wookie’s Lair: http://www.wookieslair.com/modules.php?name=Web_Links


DISCLAIMER
The views expressed in MCIVTA are entirely those of the subscribersand there is no intention to represent these opinions as being thoseof Manchester City Football Club, nor of any of the companies anduniversities by whom the subscribers are employed. It is not inany way whatsoever connected to the club or any other relatedorganisation and is simply a group of supporters using this mediumas a means of disseminating news and exchanging opinions.


[Valid3.2]Heidi Pickup, editor@mcivta.city-fan.org

Newsletter #1173

2005/11/14

Editor:


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