Newsletter #761

Tonight’s issue sees Ken’s Diary, plenty of opinion on atmosphere, end-of-season projections and the great badge debate continues; we also have a handful of requests which no doubt somebody out there can provide answers to.

Not much else to report apart from the Weatherall deal appears to have fallen through and nationally PFA members have voted in favour of the strike which could affect games in November should negotiations with the TV companies break down.

Next game: Portsmouth, away, 12.30pm Saturday 17 November 2001


12 November:
City 4 U****d 0 in the League Cup in 1976. Hartford, Royle, and Tueart (2), including one inside the first minute gave City this easy win, but the most significant thing about the game was Colin Bell’s injury as Martin Buchan came across to tackle him; it put him out of the game for a long time and he was never quite the same again. Mike Summerbee scored in the 1-0 win at Stoke in 1966. City’s ancestors St. Mark’s West Gorton played Newton Heath on this day in 1881, and lost 3-0. 1984 and a wretched rainy night in west London as City were beaten 4-1 by Chelsea in the League Cup. There were a few City fans huddled in the open behind the goal, but not wanting to get soaked a handful of us went into the stand. At 0-0 a City shot went just wide, there were shouts of “Oooh” as you do, whereupon a shaven-headed Neanderthal in the seats in front turned his skull around and said, slowly, “oy, iff you does that agen, you is f****n dead, know wot I mean?” There wasn’t much resaon to as Chelsea got their four before City scored near the end.

13 November:
St. Mark’s West Gorton had their first game on this day in 1880 losing 2-1 to a Macclesfield Baptist Church team. In 1971 Ian Mellor and Colin Bell scored to beat Arsenal 2-1 at Highbury.

14 November:
Alan Oakes made his début, age 17, vs. Chelsea in 1959, a 1-1 draw with Jack Dyson scoring the goal. Paul Stewart scored twice as City won 2-0 at Reading in Division Two in 1987. In 1984 City played a friendly with an Australian XI and lost 3-1.

15 November:
Gerry Gow’s first goal for City in the 3-0 home win over Southampton in 1980. Peter Reid became City’s player-manager in 1990. City 4 U****d 0 in 1969, 63,000 in Maine Road to see Neil Young and Bell (twice) score and David Sadler put one in his own net. Bill Leivers scored a rare goal as City beat Chelsea 5-1 in 1958, Jimmy Meadows getting three in another 5-1 win on this date in 1952 over Charlton. Charlton were also on the other end of a hat-trick when the much-discussed Andy Black got three in the 4-0 win in 1947.

16 November:
Clive Wilson and Paul Simpson scored in the 2-0 win at Nottingham Forest in 1985. Ian Bowyer, age 17, made played his first game, at Newcastle in 1968. City had won the championship there the previous May but this one stayed 0-0 until Wyn Davies got Newcastle the points with a header in the last minute. The 1-0 win over Coventry in 1946 (one M. Dunkley scored) was the start of a 22-match unbeaten run in the League which took City to the Division Two title. In 1895 Billy Meredith scored City’s only goal in the 4-1 defeat by Bolton Wanderers.

17 November:
Francis Lee’s goal beat QPR 1-0 at Maine Road in 1973. Steve Daley’s goal was the winner in the 1-0 at Bolton in 1979. Fifty years ago today Johhny Hart scored at West Brom, where City lost 3-2. On a short tour to the United Arab Emirates in 1986 City beat Al-Ahly 3-1.

18 November:
It’s Joe Corrigan’s birthday (1948). A year ago today Posh Spice’s husband put a free kick past Nicky Weaver at the start of the first Manchester derby in a while, and in spite of good chances and playing above themselves City ended up losing 1-0. In 1972 it was City 3 U****d 0 at Maine Road. Alex Stepney fell over his full-back and Colin Bell tapped in the first; he scored again to make it 2-0, and would have been able to claim a hat-trick but it was Martin Buchan’s deflection of Bell’s shot that got the credit. For the third.

Kenneth Corfield (


Someone in this week’s Mcvitee (#760) commented on the lack of atmosphere at a recent match at Maine Road. I, too, think the atmosphere has been pretty weird most of this season.

Perhaps we just can’t get worked up by beating teams like, say, Grimsby – even though it’s a nice change after last season to see us (a) winning matches and (b) scoring lots of goals. I don’t know what it is, but I do think things have been pretty subdued of late.

I also have to say that at 3-0 up during the Grimsby game, this guy in front of me was still slagging the team off and moaning when passes went astray! For God’s sake, some people are never pleased.

I think we need some new chants. Some of the stuff against Gillingham was quite funny but I think we need something new to perk us up. And can we please give it a rest with “town full of munichs” – not funny, totally boring and nothing to do with City!

Anyone got any suggestions?

Christine Haynes (


I have always been a fan of the round City badge prominent round the time of our greatest successes i.e. the ship and stripes derived from our Mancunian coat of arms, the Lancashire rose and the proud, bold letters announcing to the world that we are Manchester City F.C.

Can somebody not get around this protected horsesh!t and re-create a badge incorporating the same symbolisms? Let’s banish the chicken and stars to the bin.

Dave Lyons (


I would like to thank everyone for their supportive answers to the idea of starting a campaign for the return to City’s “old” English badge. I understand the club does not hold the rights over it any more, but I imagine it can be bought back. Could someone provide us with the address (e-mail or postal) of someone (with a decent degree of responsibility) at the club, to whom we can send a petition?

It was good to read Ernie Whalley’s comments on the current badge. He suggested DB should be made aware about the fans’ wish to get the decent badge back. Maybe if we are enough to express such a wish, the club may try to do something about it.

Always Blue, Val Cudric (


I am all for a change to the City badge. When it was changed to its present form, many City fans thought the club was wearing a Barclays Bank badge (nothing against the bank). Or that it was the Eagle of Poland.

If a new badge is to be designed I do think that it should have the name of the club on it, “Manchester City” and also the Red Rose of Lancashire (just like the old one had). And forget all the Latin cr@p, we regular City fans didn’t go to Rome to be educated. We City fans I am sure would like to wear our badge with pride and let the world understand what the words mean in good old English.

I still have my old City badge from a blazer, made with the gold wire etc. I have kept it with pride, strange I never even bothered to try and get the newer version (never thought about that until now).

Good article by Ernie Whalley (wondered where he had got to, it was worth the wait). Thanks to all who contribute each week, to update us City fans as to what’s happening at our favourite club.

I think we can all see Kevin Keegan’s team coming through, City should be there at the end of the season.

Ernie Barrow (


Can I totally agree with Ernest Whalley about the old (but totally new in design) badge. I live now near Bromley in Kent, have the old badge on a car and the new one on a mobile home (could not get an old one for it).

“Foreigners” totally recognise the old badge (and many of the great players etc. we had); the new one creates “thought you supported City?”. I have one of the round pottery clocks with the old badge. Still raising great comment and keeping good time.

Peter Holland (


Have to agree with others on this subject. The ‘not so new’ badge is naff to say the least! If it was just the shield and motto or, even better, just the shield then I for one wouldn’t have a problem with it. As others have mentioned, it’s the ‘eagle and stars’ thing that still puts me off.

What have an eagle and three stars got to do with City? B*gger all methinks! The ship and stripes from the City of Manchester Crest are fairly obvious links but eagles! When was the last sighting of an eagle in the City of Manchester or better still Moss Side? There are reasons that the Club changed from the obviously well loved circular design and I’ve heard at least two versions of why. I’m not sure what I believe so I won’t offer an opinion on that.

But it has changed and not for the better in my opinion, so what can we do about it? I think this is the heart of the matter, what can we do about it? I suspect the answer is not a lot! There’s marketing and cost implications for a start. And are the powers that be going to admit to making a mistake? I doubt it. Some of them still say they like this silver away kit!

I personally would love City to adopt the City of Manchester Crest and pay the City a bit of dosh for the use of it. To me it means what I feel City is about. Tradition, belonging, and a bit of class. The present badge does nothing in this, yes it’s modern thinking I suppose but it’s naff!

With the move to the new stadium in a couple of years, there has obviously been a lot of liaison type chats between the Club and the City council. Therefore now would be an ideal time to put forward this suggestion. I’m sure that the council would love the Club basically advertising the City of Manchester for free (rather than Stretford!).

I don’t expect the Club to change the badge but it’s interesting to know that I’m not the only one who’s a bit embarrassed by the ‘new badge’.

Kelvin – Blue in Blue (


At the risk of being slightly unpopular, may I lay my cards on the table and say that I like the current badge, thank you very much, as I was largely indifferent to one particular crest of old.

If you lot must really insist on beheading the eagle, chicken – whatever you feel fit to call it – then let’s not take a step back into the totally naff world of the 70’s football crest. The only club, in my mind, to have kept the crest that was redesigned for them in that particular decade have been Nottingham Forest… and just how dated does that “tree” thing look nowadays? Very.

Poor old Fulham – just look what a lack of thought can do to the badge redesign process. As an acute badge anorak, I shook my head when I saw Fulham’s traditional, unique crest replaced by a carbuncle of monstrous proportions: “FFC” – brilliant(!)

And that’s what’s wrong with our circular design. Too “simple”. Too “70s”. If you want an indication as to where that badge belongs, take a look at the crests of the German Bundesliga clubs. Simple, circular designs with the clubs’ initials chucked in for good measure that lack any true “meaning”. Hardly surprising coming from a country whose football culture is still locked in the decade in question.

If you want to maintain “tradition”, step back that little bit further to the ’69 cup final and the crest of Manchester – perhaps that’s what should be on the shirts. We are, as we rightfully claim, a Manchester club after all (aside: surely Trafford United don’t have the right to wear the city crest on their blazers?)?

But I’d rather not, as I’ve grown rather attached to our eagle, ship, stripes and latin motto ensemble; there’s a certain “strength” about it that I can’t quite put my finger on. So there.

Karl Florczak (


First congratulations to Ali Benarbia who according to the City website married his long term girlfriend, Wafaa. I assume that she is extremely slim…

Preston suffers from the Geist jinx falling from the top spot down to fourth this week. The top four are separated by just 3 points and all indications are that this will be close all season. Once we get to 20 games played I’ll also list the projected final point total.

Memo to Sven: The answer is Lee Bowyer.
Memo to Kevin: Less old geezers, more good youngsters for the future. Both Liverpool and Leeds have very good youngsters who need to move for first team football.

Projected Final Positions results through Sunday November 11. The number in parentheses is their current league position.

01 Wolverhampton (01)
02 Coventry (06)
03 Manchester City (07)
04 Preston (09)
05 West Brom (02)
06 Norwich (03)
07 Burnley (05)
08 Birmingham (11)
09 Bradford (12)
10 Portsmouth (10)
11 Millwall (08)
12 Nottingham Forest (15)
13 Wimbledon (14)
14 Crystal Palace (04)
15 Gillingham (21)
16 Watford (13)
17 Sheffield Utd (17)
18 Grimsby (20)
19 Crewe (16)
20 Sheffield Wednesday (22)
21 Barnsley (23)
22 Walsall (19)
23 Rotherham (18)
24 Stockport (24)

What is the Geist Index?

Every week I get asked the specifics so… you start with a premise so basic it’s silly. Every team should win its own home games. Then you add in the premise that the top 6 teams, defined as the 3 teams relegated and the 3 play-off teams remaining should at least get an away draw against the bottom 6 teams, defined as the 3 teams promoted and the 3 teams who finished 19-21 the previous year – and adjust accordingly.

What this gives you is a starting point for the top teams of 75 points, the bottom teams of 57 and the “regular” teams of 69 (23×3).

Then as the season starts you modify the totals assigned to each match up. Therefore I start with City assigned 3 points for the season outcome of both games against Burnley. The assumption is that they will win at home and lose away. However, when City won at Burnley the assigned value to City vs. Burnley for the season changes to 6 for City and 0 for Burnley. The assumption is still made that City will win the return fixture at Maine Road even though it has yet to be played.

Wallace Poulter (


I have been a City ex-pat now for four years living in the sunny south of France, still managed to see some 15 games or so, but I note that some of our ex-pat friends cannot see the City goals.

I was told about a site which shows the goals in Real Player version and Windows Media Player, hope this helps:


Geoff McCumesky (


Did everyone get the letter from the chairman, basically doing some market surveys on supporters’ purchasing habits and attitudes to supporting City? Amongst the many questions, two consecutive questions were (the actual words may have been a bit different):

a. What do you find most irritating about following City?
b. What do you like most about following City?

I answered the first one with the phrase “The unpredictability”. I then went away and thought about the second, came back and answered “The unpredictability”!

Chris Ryder (


Any other good plates around? I was previously ‘ManCity’ of Nevada.

David Atkins (


As news of another defensive signing appears on (namely David Weatherall), my thoughts turned to City’s fine collection of centre halves.

I just wondered if any MCIVTA readers know the whereabouts of our former captain and Collymore-snogger, Andy Morrison? Is he still occupying the number 5 shirt? I thought he’d been given a free transfer in the summer, then KK had allowed him to train with the squad while he got set up with a club. Any sightings of the great man, either Moss Side, Carrington or elsewhere?

I was interested as he’s the only City captain to lift any silverware during my son’s lifetime (I just hope he’s not the last captain to do so in my lifetime!).

CTIWLTAM (City till I weigh less than Andy Morrison), Don Barrie (


I’m doing for When Saturday Comes a “your club’s best ever moments” piece (600 words). They’ve suggested 1968 (last match or whole season). Strictly for those who can remember 1968 – was this City’s best-ever moment?

And is my memory more or less right, that until Liverpool fans started singing “Ee-aye-addio, we’ve won the cup” there was not much chanting, and no singing at matches (other than traditional “club songs” like Eton Boating Song at Coventry and “Blowing Bubbles” at West Ham)?

Steve Parish (


My brother, Chris James, is looking to get in contact with Pat Berry, who is an avid City fan. If there is anyone that knows him, can they let him know that Chris is eager to get in touch with him. Can you email back with your reply.

Mandy (


I was “indoctrinated” into the world of Manchester City in the 1940’s for my sins by my three older brothers; don’t ask me why but we are still under the influence.

It would be nice to get another Joe Mercer and a young Malcolm Allison to knock this still wonderful club back into shape. I still have my doubts about Kevin Keegan but at least he’s now managed to field a team that plays football. How long for, I don’t know. I suppose we can still dream but at nearly 70, how long can I wait?

John (


Recent results from 8th November 2001 to 11th November 2001 inclusive.

11 November 2001

Walsall               2 - 0  Nottingham Forest      6,754

10 November 2001

Burnley               1 - 1  Portsmouth            14,123
Crewe Alexandra       0 - 0  Gillingham             5,419
Norwich City          1 - 4  Bradford City         17,414
Sheffield Wednesday   0 - 0  Grimsby Town          17,507
Watford               1 - 1  Stockport County      12,576

9 November 2001

Millwall              1 - 0  Rotherham United      12,173
Wimbledon             1 - 1  Sheffield United       4,937

8 November 2001

Preston North End     2 - 2  Barnsley              19,442

League table to 11 November 2001 inclusive.

                             HOME          AWAY        OVERALL
                    P  W  D  L  F  A  W  D  L  F  A  W  D  L  F  A  GD Pts
 1 Wolves          17  4  2  2 10  6  6  2  1 18  8 10  4  3 28 14  14  34
 2 West Brom A.    18  5  1  3 10  5  5  1  3 12 11 10  2  6 22 16   6  32
 3 Norwich City    18  7  1  1 15  6  3  1  5  9 16 10  2  6 24 22   2  32
 4 Crystal Palace  16  7  0  2 24  8  3  1  3 13 14 10  1  5 37 22  15  31
 5 Burnley         18  5  3  1 23 15  4  1  4 13 13  9  4  5 36 28   8  31
 6 Coventry City   17  4  2  2 11  7  5  2  2 11  7  9  4  4 22 14   8  31
 7 Manchester City 17  6  2  1 24  9  3  1  4 18 17  9  3  5 42 26  16  30
 8 Millwall        17  6  1  1 19  9  3  2  4 11 10  9  3  5 30 19  11  30
 9 Preston N.E.    18  5  3  1 21  7  3  3  3 10 15  8  6  4 31 22   9  30
10 Portsmouth      18  4  1  3 13 10  3  5  2 15 13  7  6  5 28 23   5  27
11 Birmingham City 18  5  1  3 18  9  2  4  3 11 15  7  5  6 29 24   5  26
12 Bradford City   18  5  1  3 25 20  2  3  4 11 16  7  4  7 36 36   0  25
13 Watford         17  5  3  2 21 13  2  0  5  9 12  7  3  7 30 25   5  24
14 Wimbledon       18  3  4  2 15 12  3  2  4 17 17  6  6  6 32 29   3  24
15 Nottm Forest    18  5  3  1 12  6  1  3  5  6 11  6  6  6 18 17   1  24
16 Crewe Alex.     18  4  4  2  8 10  1  2  5  8 15  5  6  7 16 25  -9  21
17 Sheff. United   19  3  3  3 11 12  1  5  4  5 12  4  8  7 16 24  -8  20
18 Rotherham Utd.  19  2  5  2 12 14  2  2  6 11 17  4  7  8 23 31  -8  19
19 Walsall         18  4  3  3 12 11  1  1  6  8 17  5  4  9 20 28  -8  19
20 Grimsby Town    19  3  2  4  8 12  2  2  6 11 24  5  4 10 19 36 -17  19
21 Gillingham      17  4  1  3 17 10  1  2  6  7 18  5  3  9 24 28  -4  18
22 Sheff. Wed.     19  2  4  4 12 17  2  2  5  7 15  4  6  9 19 32 -13  18
23 Barnsley        18  3  3  3 13 17  0  2  7  7 23  3  5 10 20 40 -20  14
24 Stockport C.    18  0  1  7  5 17  1  5  4 14 23  1  6 11 19 40 -21   9

With thanks to Football 365


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Newsletter #761