Newsletter #750

Plenty of opinion in this issue to give you all something to mull over until our next game. MS word problems are thankfully now resolved, and a gorgeous day here in Manchester to get out and enjoy this afternoon’s game.

Next game: Birmingham City, home (WC 3rd round), Wednesday 10 September 7.45pm


I feel sorry that Joe Royle has got to sue Manchester City. I always held Joe in the highest esteem.

Joe Royle has to do what he has to do, but at the end of the season we were no longer in the Premier League. If Joe wins then Dennis Tueart will be the loser.

But who am I, not a lawyer that’s for sure. What does this mean for Joe if he does not win? Who will want to hire him as a manager after this?

At the end of the day I hope that there is something that everyone can live with, but with truth. Joe you have your reasons, as fans we don’t really know, I just don’t wish Joe the worst, or my favourite club City the worst either.

As a fan I just wish this did not have to happen. Peace.

Come on you Blues! Ernie Barrow (


The Kippax seems to be replacing the Main Stand as the home of the whingers. Some clown sitting close to me spent the entire Wimbledon match (literally), moaning at Howey (and only Howey), whilst another ‘fan’ told Pearce to “Get back to West Ham and take Keegan with you”.

What is wrong with these people? Do they come to the match hoping it will go pear-shaped? Despite my 8-hour round trip to watch that load of garbage, the thing that depressed me most about the weekend was the attitude of these morons. I know they represent a minority, but by its nature, it’s a fairly vocal minority.

So much for support – I think I’ll try Platt Lane next year for a bit of peace and quiet.

Scott Turton (


Too many changes to mention since the last squad. Let’s just say it’s growing again. Time to get rid of some of the Tony Tramp’s of this world methinks.

This Year’s U19

Gary Furnival (defender)
Barry Hogan (defender)
Damian Joyce (midfield)
Andrew Tunnicliffe (forward)
David Hodgson (goalkeeper)
James Almond (forward)
Phil Gilder (midfield)
Stephen Elliot (midfield)
Daniel McTaggert
Adie Orr (forward)
Ciaron Kilheeny (midfield)
Mark Egerton
Ryan McDowall

This years U-17’s

Willo Flood
Lee Croft
Doryl Prophett
Shaun Cartwright
Richard Crawford
Adam James
Ryan McDowell
David Tickle
Quigley (goalkeeper)
Craig Smith
Bradley Wright-Philips
Jamie Tandy
Richard Harris
Danny Douglas-Pringle
Nathan D’Laryea
Karl Bermingham

Stuart Reynolds (


A number of you have asked me to detail the mathematics behind the Geist Index. Apparently I’m not the only one who spent time working out complicated formulae including size of victory, score versus no score draws etc. After messing around with that kind of information I came to the conclusion that the formulas that I was generating were complex for their own sake, rather than for any logical reason. So a few years ago I hit on the following which has proven very robust.

I start with the basic assumption that every team should win all of its home games. Then I add in the concept that the top 6 teams should gain a draw when playing away to the bottom 6 teams. To give some examples, I start off with Manchester City expected to win at home verses Burnley and vice versa. Therefore each team can expect to gain 3 points. However, when City beat Burnley, at Burnley, the data is changed so that City is now projected to gain 6 points from their games against Burnley this year while Burnley is projected to receive 0. Another example is Manchester City and Walsall. Here City are projected not only to win at home but to also draw at Walsall (top 6 playing at bottom 6). So City already have 4 points projected from their games against Walsall while Walsall only is projected to gain a point from both encounters.

Speaking of Walsall, I found it funny listening over the Internet when Sky Sports said that Walsall had “gained a point” after a series of losses by drawing 0-0 at home to Millwall. On the contrary, Walsall lost 2 points in the Index for that performance while Millwall gained the point by drawing away from a home in a game they were projected to lose.

So, as the season progresses the numbers change and become set in stone as the games are played. You can never change the fact that Wimbledon won at Maine Road. They have their 3 points from that encounter. The only variable left is that when the return fixture is played, City have a chance to get those points back by winning at Selhurst Park.

Until Saturday’s defeat City were projected to win the division because they were following a perfect script. Win every game at home and an occasional game away will get you promoted every time. Wolves, for all the fact that they are undefeated, have drawn two games at home (against Stockport and Portsmouth!). That is a combined loss of 4 points. It is their superb form away from home with wins against Coventry, Preston etc. that now sees them leading the Index and projected as Champions.

Meanwhile, Stockport have climbed out of the dreaded “guaranteed to be relegated” zone to be replaced by Rotherham.

Projected Final Positions results through Sunday September 30. The number in parentheses is their current league position.

01 Wolverhampton (1)
02 Manchester City (6)
03 Burnley (2)
04 Coventry (9)
05 West Brom (3)
06 Birmingham (14)
07 Bradford (8)
08 Norwich (4)
09 Preston (16)
10 Wimbledon (10)
11 Grimsby (12)
12 Nottingham Forest (11)
13 Gillingham (15)
14 Portsmouth (7)
15 Sheffield Wednesday (21)
16 Crewe (19)
17 Sheffield Utd (18)
18 Watford (17)
19 Barnsley (20)
20 Crystal Palace (5)
21 Millwall (13)
22 Walsall (23)
23 Stockport (22)
24 Rotherham (24)

Wallace Poulter (


Don’t know what made me think of this, but here’s a little story from 1994. I live in Pennsylvania, and I’d gone down to Washington DC for the US National brass band championships. On the day before the contest, they organized a “sight reading” band for anyone who felt like it to turn up and play music just for fun. So, there I was, playing my flugel horn, sitting next to a guy playing his cornet who, like me, spoke without an accent (though people on this side of the pond tend to accuse us of having “British accents” – whatever that means).

Well, we ended up hanging around together much of the weekend, going out to dinner with our wives, etc. And here’s the neat bit – when I asked him what he’d done for a living (he’d already said he’d retired), he said “professional footballer”. Of course there are no prizes for guessing which club he played for. Name of Alan Black, played “inside left” (ah, those quaint position labels of yore) around 1946 or so.

Anyone remember him (he wasn’t BSing me, was he – he came up with Man C before I ever said a word about my Blueness)? I have never run across him since. He lives in Toronto.

Bill Buffam, West Chester PA (


I recently came across an article entitled Manchester 1 London 0 about how Eastlands will place any Wembley project in the shade. It gives an insight into the new stadium and how it is being constructed; if anyone is interested it may be found at:

Acknowledgements to August edition of ‘Building’ magazine.

Stuart Wells (


Following the article in the last issue, a couple of people have asked where they can purchase a bottle or two of the famous ‘Goats do Roam’. Well the only source I know is Majestic wines. They have shops nationwide but they also have their own Internet site where you can see the said vino and order on-line. If that isn’t everyone’s cup of tea then phoning your nearest store (addresses on-line) will get you free home delivery on anything over a case. We have ordered from the Stockport store before now and even though we live a good ten miles away the case was delivered within two hours of our call.

Before anyone asks I don’t have any connection with the company… but if 30,000 Blues start buying cases of ‘Goats’ I might be asking for a commission!

Keep the faith and enjoy the wine… Dave Cash (


Thanks for your reminiscence of Ivor Broadis. What a talent what would his worth be today? I think the last time I saw him was in a newsagent’s shop on Wilmslow Road that he may have owned.

Thanks for the memory.

Peter Holland (


Supporters’ Trusts have been set up around the country by supporters, both of large and small teams, to help fans play a responsible rôle in the running of the club they support. The trust can act as a forum for presenting the views of fans on matters they care about: protecting their clubs from the threat of bankruptcy, corporate takeovers, TV scheduling, reduced access to tickets for matches etc. As Manchester City fans we know too well the implications of all of the above and at present seem to have little opportunity to put our views on these or any other issues to the club. A supporters’ trust could change this and help us organise ourselves in a way the club cannot ignore.

Supporters’ groups can be organised in a number of ways: as independent supporters’ associations; supporter-shareholder groups; official supporters’ clubs etc. However, the most democratic and influential way of organising is as a trust. A trust can hold shares, elect a representative to the board, present their members’ views at AGMs and take on employees if necessary. As such, Celtic’s fans have elected to set up as a trust to present the views of their fan base at Celtic’s recent AGM on issues such as the election of a fan’s representative to the board, weekend AGMs and the consultation of fans on changing shirt designs. Newcastle United fans also formed a trust to try to prevent corporate movers and shakers (!) from displacing long standing season ticket holders from the best appointed seats. In the court case Kevin Keegan provided a written statement in support of their claim!

The main concerns of the London branch, of which I am a member, which were discussed at our last AGM, were the lack of contact between the branch and the club’s senior management and players, the increasing difficulty of obtaining tickets for away matches and the ridiculous scheduling of games for evening kick-offs not only at the weekend but even on Thursdays! These are issues affecting all genuine supporters who only want to follow their team.

We need to ensure that our views are taken into account which is not happening at present as we do not have a “united” (pardon me) front. A Supporters’ Trust is a new and positive means of achieving this. Of course if any action is taken by City supporters this must emanate from the Executive Committee of the Official Supporters’ Club and possibly the Centenary Association.

I attended a one day course at Birkbeck College last week to find out more information about Supporters’ Trusts. What was so encouraging was the way in which fans from clubs throughout the Premier and Football League have taken the opportunity to become actively involved in the running of their club. The Owls Trust at Sheffield Wednesday for instance, have acquired a shareholding of nearly 10% in their club and with proxy votes from a sympathetic shareholders’ association can claim up to 23% of the votes. Likewise, Chesterfield fans now have a controlling interest in their Club; this was achieved in a very short space of time and we can emulate their success. Other trusts at clubs both large and small are making headway and it seems clear to all those in attendance that the trust movement is gathering momentum and power, helping fans to have real influence and representation at their clubs.

The trust initiative is firmly backed by Supporters Direct, a government funded body set up to help the establishment of trusts. They offer advice, support and financial support for supporters wishing to play a responsible role in the club. They can also offer assistance with legal fees and subsidised banking and provide advice and support about how best to organise the trust. Trust representatives can learn about the benefits of running an effective and democratic trust at their club through a series of conferences and workshops organised by Supporters Direct. We have an opportunity to make our voices heard that Aston Villa, Spurs, and Sheffield Wednesday fans have already achieved. Don’t we deserve the same chance?

Thanks for listening.

Janet Entwistle (


I’ve used for getting City results sent to my phone since midway through last season – which was very depressing at the time! At least there is some variety in the results this season. I signed up for their bronze service (full time score and attendance only) and it has been very reliable. A few times last season the messages came a day late, but frankly that was still too soon for most games. This year the result has been coming through within 5 to 10 minutes of full time. I am on One2One – I don’t know if the service will be affected by what network you are on, but you can sign up regardless of which one you use.

The full price list is at – it is a flat fee for the year, which with the way things are going has to be better than paying per goal/message.

Nick Evans (


I use a service from who run a three tier service. I was involved in the early trial and have the minimum service, final score and attendance for free. I believe this service is no longer available at no cost. Prices range from £60 per year to £20 per year for the minimum service. I can’t comment on any of the subscription services.

Hope this helps.

Paul Eckersley (


A City fan walks into the Dog and Partridge in Stretford and says to the barman “Hey, I’ve got this fantastic Rag joke”.

The barman glares at him and says in a warning tone, “Before you go telling that joke you’d better know that I’m a Red, all three bouncers are Reds and so are most of the customers in here.”

“Okay” says the Blue, “I’ll tell it VERY slowly”

Darran Parkins (


A mortician had a new apprentice who was learning the embalming ropes. He walked into the embalming room, where a body was lying on the table. Thinking he knew enough now to begin the procedure without his boss, he began examining the body. He rolled it over and to his amazement there was a cork in its ass. Mystified, he pulled it out, and immediately heard; “Glory Glory Man Utd” come out the guy’s butt.

Startled by what had happened, he shoved the cork back into the body and ran up the stairs to find his mentor: “Sir, you’ve got to come down and help me, I’ve just seen something I can’t believe.”

Annoyed by the naïvete of his assistant, he said OK and followed him downstairs. “There, look at the cork in the backside of that body, I couldn’t imagine what it was doing there so I pulled it out. Please you do it.”

The mortician was a bit surprised to see the cork, too, so he walked to the table and removed the cork, and sure enough: “Glory Glory Man Utd” began to play. Exasperated, he replaced the cork in its appointed position, turned to his assistant and said: “What’s so surprising about that? I’ve heard thousands of assholes sing that song.”

Matt Spence (


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Comments concerning this FAQ should be sent to David Warburton using the address:

[1] MCIVTA Deadlines

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[2] MCIVTA Back Issues and Manchester City Supporters’ home page is the unofficial Manchester City Supporters’ home page. Created in 1994, it is the longest running of the Manchester City related web sites. Back issues of MCIVTA are also hosted on the site.

[3] Club Web Site

The official club web site can be found at

[4] Supporters’ Clubs

Manchester City FC recognises three supporters’ clubs: The “Official Supporters Club” (; the “Centenary Supporters’ Association” ( and “The International Supporters’ Club” (

[5] Fans’ Committee

The Fans’ Committee operates as an interface between supporters and the club. It has its own website, containing info about forthcoming meetings as well as minutes from previous gatherings.

[6] City of Manchester Stadium Progress/Web Cam

The latest information regarding the progress of our new home can be found at

[7] Match Day Broadcasts

Live match commentaries and archives of games, reports and interviews can be found here: An alternate live commentary service, hosted by Yahoo, is located at: GMR Saturday Sport is also available live online between 1-3pm, and 4.45-6pm at

[8] 01/02 Season Match Day Theme Tune

The music the teams run out to at Maine Road this season is “Nightmare”, by Brainbug, and is available on the Positiva label.

[9] Acknowledgements

Thanks go to John Arnold for providing the information regarding match day music and to Ian Bell for pointing out the alternate live match commentary service.

The views expressed in MCIVTA are entirely those of the subscribersand there is no intention to represent these opinions as being thoseof Manchester City Football Club, nor of any of the companies anduniversities by whom the subscribers are employed. It is not inany way whatsoever connected to the club or any other relatedorganisation and is simply a group of supporters using this mediumas a means of disseminating news and exchanging opinions.

[Valid3.2]Heidi Pickup,

Newsletter #750